Results of an informal survey

[Patti]

I've had several people ask me recently where RepBot was.  I usually told them that I'd be happy to tell them in a moment, but that I wanted to ask them a few questions first.

Nearly everyone who pinged me thought that RepBot was an official part of FIBS, and that I was responsible for it.  (There's some sample bias there, of course... if you're asking me about RepBot, you probably don't know that you shouldn't be doing so.) 

Not one single person could tell me what it meant to have a saved game on the savedgames list.  People kind of knew that not all of the games in the list were deliberate drops, but they didn't much of an understanding of how games might get there.

Only one person had any idea at all where RepBot got its savedgames information from.


This tells me that a lot of information is getting lost somewhere.  RepBot was supposed to be very proactive about telling people that I wasn't responsible for it and shouldn't be bothered with issues about it, but that's not actually getting through to users.  Similarly, it wasn't doing a very good job of educating users about what its information actually meant.  I don't know how much of this is the design of the bot vs. client integration, but key information was getting lost along the way.

[socksey]

Nearly everyone who pinged me thought that RepBot was an official part of FIBS, and that I was responsible for it.  (There's some sample bias there, of course... if you're asking me about RepBot, you probably don't know that you shouldn't be doing so.)

I just had a flash.  How about you add that information to your opening statement when we log in about how none of the bots are yours?   

RepBot clearly has the owner email there if you do a "whois".  Newbies would not know this, and the only other way the word could get out to them is through misc shouts or through dreadful spamming.   

Not one single person could tell me what it meant to have a saved game on the savedgames list.  People kind of knew that not all of the games in the list were deliberate drops, but they didn't much of an understanding of how games might get there.

I have no expaination of this abiguity except perhaps those asked did not have a clear knowledge of the English language or maybe they just didn't have time to think clearly enough.   

I'm still missing RepBot.     People are still asking what happened to RepBot after all this time.  It was a big help to many. 

socksey



"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress....But then I repeat myself."
- Mark Twain

[adrian]

I can foresee similar  problems with the replacement bots, which will eventually be integrated in the clients (the three gBots that offer saved game info and mudPY bot). The new users will pester Patti, not Heinz or Don, despite the fact that this bots don't give that usefull/funny/abusable and whine generating reputation info. I bet that I will see soon in shouts flames like "PlayerX has YY saved games, he's an as.shole dropper and a motherf.ucker." Not to mention the "courtesy" exchanges of the tells.., when some touchy player receives an invite from the player who maybe has too many saved games.
I don't know how many new players come to FIBS every month and how many leave it forever, a wild guess is maybe 300?  Among them , VERY few bother to read the information provided on www.fibs.com or www.fibsboard.com. My suggestion is to add these addresses in MOTD permanently.
After all , even I played a lot first, and only after several months I started to read. The droppers/abusers problem is not new and it has no cure , unless Marvin steps in.
After all it is still a free server, whoever wants to play and socialize here, stays, the rest are allowed to request a cashback and leave. 
I don't think RepBot will be back. Even if it will be here again, with the requested improvements , the whines and the e-mails will go to Patti, unless she sets the e-mail client to forward automatically all e-mails containing the word repbot in the message body, to Avik. 

[Patti]

RepBot clearly has the owner email there if you do a "whois".  Newbies would not know this, and the only other way the word could get out to them is through misc shouts or through dreadful spamming.   

RepBot was *supposed* to be informing people that it wasn't part officially part of FIBS and that I wasn't to be bothered by it.  Much like don's new bot, I believe it did this by sending the information with some responses to inquiries.  Either it wasn't doing that, it wasn't doing it well enough to be successful, or client integration stripped that information away.

I have no expaination of this abiguity except perhaps those asked did not have a clear knowledge of the English language or maybe they just didn't have time to think clearly enough.

The explanation was easy-- the information was never communicated to them.  The savedgames page has always had strong language at the top describing exactly what the numbers meant.  RepBot almost certainly did not pass along any of that information, so people had no idea where it came from or what its numbers meant.  Even if it did, client integration probably stripped this off.  This is why I just added a qualification to the savedgames page such that if any (client/bot) passed the savedgames information along, it also had to pass along the description of the numbers.  You're no longer allowed to use the savedgames data in your program unless you include the sentence "Note that it may include games that were concluded during the last 24 hours, as well as unlimited matches and matches in progress."

People are still asking what happened to RepBot after all this time.  It was a big help to many.

Some people are unhappy that it's gone, and some are happy.  A surprising number of people have thanked me.  The thing I've heard several times is "oh, it was just a stupid popularity contest anyway."  I expected to get nothing but grief if it went away, but some people hated it but felt obligated to play the game.

[adrian]

Some people are unhappy that it's gone, and some are happy.

Make another informal poll, this time directly on FIBS. Announce it on MOTD. The suggested choices are:

A. Repbot stays if the loopholes that annoys people are closed

and

B. I want no RepBot.

The poll will be active for one week and the answers will be sent to you using "message Patti A" or "message Patti B"

Sorry if I am bossing you here.. 

[Patti]

Meh.  I already know that a fair number of people like RepBot.  Quite a few don't, though.  Most didn't really understand the information it gave them, and yet treated the results as completely factual.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would have me on the server 24/7 policing language, enforcing rules, adjudicating matches, and a lot of things that would require tons of my time and energy.  I think a lot of these people also want a pony.

Luckily for me, FIBS isn't a democracy, so I get to choose how much work I do on it and whether to sleep, eat, have a social life, etc.

[PersianLord]

Meh.  I already know that a fair number of people like RepBot.  Quite a few don't, though.  Most didn't really understand the information it gave them, and yet treated the results as completely factual.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would have me on the server 24/7 policing language, enforcing rules, adjudicating matches, and a lot of things that would require tons of my time and energy.  I think a lot of these people also want a pony.

Luckily for me, FIBS isn't a democracy, so I get to choose how much work I do on it and whether to sleep, eat, have a social life, etc.

The best solution, IMO, is to ask don, inim, or the likes, to create a bot that has the features Patti wants, i.e., another RepBot, that accepts vouches/complaints only in case the two parties has played a match with each other in a reasonable period of time.

I'm sure even Patti would love to see that, cuz the overwhelming majority of fibsters are annoying her by keeping asking where the hell is RepBot.

Regards

[Luddite]

OK, repbot's gone.  I liked it and used it, aware of and despite of its flaws.  I disagree with the decision, but I don't run the joint (nor do I want to). 

As I read this thread and others, you guys make passing references to several other bots that provide some useful player information.  However, I can't find any solid information on any of them. 

Would someone, pretty please, take a few minutes and post a list of the appropriate bots, and some information about how to use them -- or perhaps where to find information on how to use them? 

Many thanks,

Bones (a recovering luddite)

[socksey]

The only other informational bots I know of are the ones don runs, but I don't see them there all the time, therefore they are only partially functioning........PYBot and MudBot?  or MudPYBot?  Not sure.  They give very limited information.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would have me on the server 24/7 policing language, enforcing rules, adjudicating matches, and a lot of things that would require tons of my time and energy.  I think a lot of these people also want a pony.

I always wanted a pony and never got one, so I gave up.  I have offered to help you in the past but my help has always been refused.  I would be happy to answer any emails that I can if you want to forward them to me.  I know the answers to most questions asked on Fibs and commonly do that as if it were my job when I'm on Fibs.  If you won't accept any help, then maybe you should be on Fibs 24/7.  ))

Meh.  I already know that a fair number of people like RepBot.  Quite a few don't, though.  Most didn't really understand the information it gave them, and yet treated the results as completely factual.

I have not kept an accurate account of how many people have asked me about Repbot and are upset because RepBot is gone, but there have been MANY.  On the other hand, I have only seen a handful of people who don't like RepBot say so in shouts.  This has been my experience.     The ones who oppose RepBot are usually the serious droppers and or the usual ***holes in residence, not you, patti!   

I'm lost without RepBot.     I haven't a clue who I should refuse matches to now.  It's a really scarey feeling.  Still hoping it somehow returns!

socksey



"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." - Winston Churchill

[Patti]

Actually, the thanks I got came from completely unexpected quarters-- people who were not generally vociferous, known troublemakers, droppers, or other people who contribute negatively to FIBS.  Rather, they were fairly quiet folks who just wanted to play backgammon and didn't want to have to play the RepBot popularity contest game (as one of them so succinctly put it.)

[PersianLord]

IMO, nobody can claim that the majority if fibsters are NOT dissatisfied with the absence of RepBot. Make a poll and I guess more than 65% will vote for RepBot's return.

But Patti is also very true on the non-desired features of RepBot, mainly the vouch/complaint format, which provided a tool for some jerks to abuse the FIBS.

All in all, as said before, the best way is creating another bot with the desired features. don is probably capable of adding the logical vouch/complaint feature.

Regards

[socksey]

Rather, they were fairly quiet folks who just wanted to play backgammon and didn't want to have to play the RepBot popularity contest game (as one of them so succinctly put it.)

I never considered RepBot was running a popularity contest.  When I looked at what RepBot had to say, I first looked at the number of saves and if the rep was in the negative zone.  If the saves were low, I would usually play someone even with a negative rep anyway.  Sometimes I based my decision to play someone on my knowledge of the complainers.  It's not a perfect system by any means.  I never said it was.  I just want it back.  As I said before, if you don't like RepBot or don't trust it for any reason, then don't use it. 

Patti, if ppl don't leave you alone about RepBot, just create a standard response and save it to your desktop.  That should cause you 4 clicks per inquiry, reply, copy, paste, send.    

My offer to help still stands.

socksey



"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." - James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)

[PolyphonicBrie]

Patti

My understanding of the situation is that Repbot is now beyond the control of anyone who cares and can spare the time.  Likewise for the FIBS code and many of the FIBS clients.

And I guess that most of the people who hassle you are newbies who perhaps weren't even born when FIBS first went live and have been raised on slick, modern gaming sites where all the information they need is spoon-fed to them from a single anonymous point.  To them, the idea that reputations wouldn't be controlled by FIBS itself might actually be quite hard to grasp!

So are there things you can do, and that the FIBS community can help you with, that would minimise your support burden?  Almost every online and offline service uses a variety of tricks to minimise and manage support calls.  Some of these tricks are sneaky and expensive, but some are just cheap and simple.

Suggestions:

1. Remove your name and email address from www.fibs.com
2. Put a big fat disclaimer on the front page of www.fibs.com saying that Repbot and its ilk are not administered by FIBS.
3. Create a new email addresses for support.  Say, supportatfibsdotcom.
4. Recruit willing volunteers to act as your front line.  They'd ignore the bullshit, reply with copy & paste responses to "top 20" questions, and only forward on real concerns to yourself.
5. Create another new email address for Repbot support.  Say, repbotatfibsdotcom.  Forward all these emails to socksey.

Whatever.  I do appreciate the work that you do, Repbot or no Repbot.

SL

[Patti]

Socksey, while I know you just want RepBot back (and a pony), it's pretty much a done deal that it won't be back in its previous form... well, not for any length of time.  I'm no longer willing to deal with the collateral damage from it.

I have no idea what RepBot's owner plans at this point; he has barely communicated with me about the matter.  Perhaps, as usual, you would be better served by addressing RepBot issues directly with the owner?

[_Z_]

and didn't want to have to play the RepBot popularity contest game

I don't understand this complaint. As a relatively new user (600 exp), I have had no problem getting a decent (70K+) reputation despite having no friends that have vouched for me. Whenever I lose a match, I say (either with a tell or a kibitz) "Thank you for the match. Please vouch for me with RepBot." I get a vouch maybe 1 out of 3 times which is more than enough. Are people too proud (or something) to do this?

I understand that there's this weird RepBot cabal that likes to ruin people's reputation when someone runs afoul of one of them. The suggestion to only allow complaints within an hour of a match being played is solid. Sure there's a downside - you can't complain about abusive shouts for instance, but the upside far outweighs the downside. I hope the administrator of RepBot takes this suggestion seriously.

I haven't been dropped on a single time and I'm guessing it's due to the fact that I rely on RepBot. I have mentioned to several people how great FIBS is now that the dropper problem has been all but solved. I would seriously consider not playing on FIBS (or playing less) if RepBot is gone forever.

_Z_

[Luddite]

I'm with Socksey -- I don't like playing without repbot, warts'n'all.  We've all encountered some deeply disturbed sociopaths at fibs  --  :sh**: --  and for this reason, I count on repbot to tell me a little (and it's usually enough).  Negative rep + 12 or more saved games = no thanks. 

I humbly request our esteemed administrator to allow it back.  We need it. 

[mradica]

Well, in last time FIBS has two bad events. First Team League was canceled and now I read how RepBot is gone. I like both features and don't care about reasons. FIBS become a little worse play to play without those features IMHO. Just want to say that organized form like TL was is best way to avoid droppers, also RepBot with save games features is also best indicator who like to drop. Nobody can say to me that if someone has more than 10 saved games didn't drop bot from time to time.
Kudos to Tomawaky who runs his FLG without breaks all these years.

[Patti]

The savedgames information has never required RepBot-- RepBot just regurgitated and slightly altered data that have been available publicly.

[PersianLord]

Frankly speaking, I think creating a desired version of a RepBot will take less time and energy for Patti than trying to convince people of the old RepBot's problems, lol.

[socksey]

It's in the works.   

socksey



"Do you like news from outer space? The Mars Rover has found evidence of water and salt. You know what this means? At one point mars supported margaritas."  - David Letterman