Preventing Italians to play each other

[MagoWiz]

I see today that Patti has found a way to make it impossible for us Italians to play each other even through ParlorPlay. She sure feels like she'd done something good and useful.

We've discussed this subject again and again, but I'm surprised that few people seem to consider a very fundamental question: does the intent of punishing an offender justify an action that is so much annoying for a large number of other normal, fair and pleasant players?

Patti has found some solutions that make it harder for an idiot (who just coincidentally, happens to be Italian) to artificially increase his/her rating. The fact that these same solutions are causing a serious, relevant disturb to an indefinite number of other absolutely normal and honest players is left completely unconsidered.  I read somewhere in this site a nice comment that compared Patti's solution to "cracking peanuts with a sledgehammer" (I hope I wrote that right). Well, that would sure be ridiculous and funny, but again a basic point is being missed: in our case, the sledgehammer is also hitting other people's toes, and nobody cares. This is more than ridiculous.

Should you find out that somebody in your building is looking in your mailbox, and you just can't find out who the jerk is, would you feel allowed to kick in the butt any person living in the building, so that you are sure you punished the guy? Would that seem reasonable?

Another aspect of this story is worth being discussed, in my opinion: the feasibility itself of Patti's solution is strictly related to the fact that the number of FIBS users logging in with Italian IP addresses is (relatively) limited. Quite obviously, a similar solution could never be implemented with reference to -say- German, British or American IPs, for the plain reason that if you prevented a significant number of players to invite each other that would simply make FIBS as good as turned off. So, why is that considered acceptable for Italy instead? The only logical answer seems to be that "if a big trouble is being caused to ONLY a few people, that equals to a SMALL trouble". Wow! Does that make sense? I wish that people who reason this way are never asked to run a hospital reception desk, a call-center, or a shop, or even a children's playground. I think that any of you can imagine how he would feel if somebody told him "I know that I am causing a trouble to you and to some others, but you see, fortunately you happen to be just a few guys, so the problem is not so important..."


Once again, I hope that Patti will reconsider her choices, and either find a more consitent solution or just let the jerk cheat on his/her rating, as she would have to do if the jerk was connecting through an American, German, British or Australian ISP. Simply limiting the access and the usage of FIBS to an indetermined number of people only becouse she knows that there's a cheater among them is unacceptable and, I think, clearly against the principles that lie beneath FIBS' creation, which are the same that are at the basis of most internet applications and services.

Should this feature not be removed, eventually the general public of players from a whole nation will be limited in their use of FIBS, but -what the heck!- we DID succed in banning a cheater! Congrats.

I look forward to reading your opinions on this, pals.

Magowiz

[vegas_vic]

Mag

First you have no clue as to why she did this ,
One you do not know what she sees happening on the server .
is it just one player ? or a group of italian players making nicks and dumping to eachother
using different isp .
FIBS is a comunity and if the italians want to police them selves and come up with the offenders
maybe the ban will be lifted .I do not think Patti is going to ban a whole country for getting one cheater.

I can bet you any kind of money that is more then one and its whole group .

So what  italians can play eachother then just play the germans
Or go to gamegrid and play to your hearts content .

Fibs has been doing just fine with the rules it has had from day one.
And try using a regular interface and stop hinding behind parlor play.

[Zorba]

If magowiz has no clue about why Patti did this why don't you explain it to us in detail, vegas_vic?

And while you're at it, why not explain to all of us "the FIBS rules from day one"?

One account per person only, vegas(_)vic.

--

Whatever Patti's reasons are for banning a complete country, which is quite extreme in any event, she could do a lot better in communicating about it. Just a simple message to the people involved explaining what's going on, or a general message somewhere (here, in r.g.b. or on her own site) would likely prevent a lot of frustration.

[MagoWiz]

Dear Vic,

  I am afraid I wasn't able to make a point.  Whether the offender is alone or there are more, it makes no difference: he/she/they have no relation to those others that merely happen to connect to the internt from ISPs which are in a similar IP range.

Deliberately creating a trouble that hits a vast and undistinguishable array of persons as a mean to hit one -or some- specific person among them is a very questionable way to do things in general, especially if this is being done over a long time and theoretically kept active indefinitely.

In this case, the array of persons is coincident with a geographic community, but this is immaterial. The choice would be questionable also if the constraint had been set to all people who are this or that (i.e., they connect from a *.org domain, or from a machine using Linux, or with IP addresses that are odd numbers in decimal format, you say what) only because we happen to know that there is one -or some- offender who appears to share the characteristics. In any case, you eventually would have persons who have nothing to do with that that are eventually affected, and you just don't want to value the trouble you make to THEM at least as much as you value the need to make this troble to the offender(s).

What is peculiar in our current case is that since the group of FIBS players who can't play together are all those who log in from a specific country, the constraint is clearly more annoying because typically persons who speak a same language and in many cases know each other are much happier to play together from time to time.

I may not know "Fibs rules from day one", but you bet I know Internet's day one principles, and one of the most innovative and fundamental ones has always been that this thing here was designed to make the concepts of geography and location something immaterial, to smile at.

Thanks for answering.

[dorbel]

Jeepers. Vic's reply is crass even by his own astonishing standards. Magowiz, one of many Italians who have graced Fibs with their friendliness and fair play, takes the trouble to make his points in a polite and articulate manner. Sadly, the ignoramus from the Big Apple is unable to do the same.
To be fair to Patti, I believe I am right in saying that she has also been the target of a great deal of e-nastiness from the bad guy(s) in this case, but it does seem unfair that other Italians have to have their activities restricted because of this. I do hope that this problem will be resolved soon.  Dictating to players from Italy which client they may use and who they may play is surely not the answer to abuse, nor is Vic's asinine suggestion that they can go and play on another server.
We should all support our Italian friends. If we don't, we might be next.

[zakasax]

This is an old story that keeps going on and on...

http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=422&hl=

All this sounds like "punish one to teach 100"...

...but I will never understand.

zak

[MagoWiz]

LOL Zak!

I guess that you actually meant exactly the opposite:
      All this sounds like "punish 100 to teach one"...

Anyhow, I see that this subject has repeatedly generated some very critical comments about the way Patti runs FIBS, which was NOT my intention. I read words lke "dictatorship" and "aggressive" that have nothing to share with my concerns. I am confident that my critics are taken as constructive and cooperational, as the mean to be.

I understand that Patti can get very upset, and that being the administrator of a place like FIBS can be a nightmare. I am impressed that she still volunteers to do that, and I am grateful for that. But, exactly because her task is so hard, she probably ends up to prefer some easy shortcut solution in some cases, when the problem to work out is complex. This might be the case.

I have no idea about how this problem can be solved, and I sure can't say that Patti is doing a bad work. She sure did the best that she could. I don't mean she's to blame, or anything like that. But, I would really like to learn that there's is some "exit strategy" for this problem, somehow. Is there one?

[NIHILIST]

I think from all the crap that Patti has taken from several different directions that it must be abundantly clear by now that she has no patience for such nonsense and isn't interested in debating things. From what I know, she had one solution and implemented it.

Clearly she found the EXIT STRATEGY; all the Italians have exited.

Ciao, baby.



NIHI

[diane]

Clearly she found the EXIT STRATEGY; all the Italians have exited.

Shame she cant find a permanent one for the other nuisances on FIBS.  For those who think it has only ever been the italians who have suffered this - I am told she used a similar strategy in an attempt to remove the other multiple nicked dropper - currently known as Replicant. A lot of his local Americans couldnt use FIBS as she tried to remove his presence.

[vegas_vic]

sorry ive been busy and could not respond to all this .

Nhil is right patti doesnt do think on a whim , we do not see what she sees happening on the server . what ever it was she had no other choice but to end it by not letting italians play eachother .

As far as Patti banning americans dear diane , she was able to see replicant play off the same isp and did what she could delted some nicks and zeroed others. i think slick might have gotten the message .

The italina thing what ever the reasons might be we will not know is not that simple and only way she could do it was banning play until she works it out .

Zorba is you dont like it here buddy there is poker or games grid . or better yet have your european buddies start a new backgammon site with your own  server.

enjoy fibs has survived thru much worse then this and it will keep on going until patti or kit pull the plug .

Enjoy the games .

[diane]

As far as Patti banning americans dear diane , she was able to see replicant play off the same isp and did what she could delted some nicks and zeroed others. i think slick might have gotten the message .


Enjoy the games .

You do?? ask Humor_me  
The point was - she has done it with his IP - which is an american one - all on his IP were unable to log in for a period of time - so it is not just the italians who have been subjected to this - albeit theirs has gone on much longer, dear vic.

And of course what he means is - those who can, enjoy the games    

[Zorba]

I'm still curious about "the FIBS rules from day one"! Vic is such an expert on all bg and fibs related topics. So he probably knows that FIBS is European, too.

Anyhow... it wouldn't hurt if Patti communicated a bit more. One paragraph might be enough already.

Now we get all sorts of guys with a midlife crisis misguessing about what she's doing and saying that she's doing it right.    

[socksey]

You do?? ask Humor_me 
The point was - she has done it with his IP - which is an american one - all on his IP were unable to log in for a period of time - so it is not just the italians who have been subjected to this - albeit theirs has gone on much longer, dear vic. 

I must interject here with, Humor_me has done some harrassing of her own (from my personal experience) and it is my understanding that her chiding remarks led to the drop she is famous for shouting about.  Don't get me wrong!  I'm not defending a dropper, but I do think the offending party, in this instance, would have resumed if an apology for the slander had been forthcoming from the Ms Humor_me person.

Patti does what she thinks she must to solve whatever problem she is presented with.  I wouldn't want her job 24/7.

Death to droppers!  

socksey



"If you're not living on the edge, you take too much space." - Deurdonderen

[vegas_vic]

Let me add again seems you all did not get it the first time.

WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PATTI SEES ON THE SERVER BETWEEN THE ITALIANS
SHE CAN SEE CHAT SHE CAN SEE MATCHES DROPED WHAT EVER IT IS .

SHE HAS THE INFO AND NO NEED TO SHARE IT WITH YOU ZORBA!!

LESS THE CHEATERS KNOW HOW PATTI OPERATES THE BETTER

SO WHAT ITALIANS CANT PLAY ITALIANS , ITS NOT GOING TO STOP ME FROM COMING TO FIBS IF I CANT PLAY ARMENIANS .
'
THERE ARE OVER 6000 PLAYERS AROUND THE WORLD  i am sure one can find a game
AND IF YOU WANT TO PLAY YOUR ITALIAN FRIEND USE YAHOOO OR ANYOTHER SITE .

FIBS RUNS JUST FINE , WITHOUT ALL THE MORAL VALUES YOU GUYS SEEM TO WANT TO PUT ON EVERYONE .

sorry for the cap.  

[dorbel]

Don't worry yourself Vic, we get your message just fine. Basically it boils down to "Europeans in general and Italians in particular can play on our all-American site if we choose to let them, but actually if they all sod off, that's fine too". It is you that miss the point. AramKhan, Magowiz et al are good fibsters, playing the game and gracing the site with their attitude. They are suffering for the antics of an undesirable minority. They deserve the support and encouragement of us all, not your condescending and dismissive arrogance. You must be very proud to have sunk to the level of NIHI, but at least you know that there is not much further to go to get to the bottom from there. Perhaps Americans prefer to play with themselves; but then we all kind of suspected that anyway!  

[Hardy_whv]

... SO WHAT ITALIANS CANT PLAY ITALIANS , ITS NOT GOING TO STOP ME FROM COMING TO FIBS IF I CANT PLAY ARMENIANS . ...

I can't believe, that you REALLY mean that Vic.

I do understand, that Patti gets upset, if some maniacs try to abuse FIBS. But there should be some intelligent way to deal with it. Maybe putting a global ban on all italians is easy to install, but it prevents me from playing with some good friends.

Or would you consider it an option to put a pizza-ban on all americans, just because of a couple of stupid americans?  

If step-by-step more and more nations get banned from FIBS, this great backgammon server is going to die :stupid3:

Hardy    

[vegas_vic]

Look you are not reading what i am saying , Patti is not a stupid person ok .

there has to be a very good reason to do what she is doing . Do you for one min think she woke up and said hmmmmm what country will i ban ?

She stopped italians from playing each other until she gets to the bottom of it .

So hold your horses and i am sure  she will figure it out

Yes i think its going over board if there are other means to solve it , maybe there is none and she is working on it . She owes us no explaintion ,so the abusers have a better idea what she is looking into . She is not going to play her hand in here so mollify any group or any person .

She has been at this longer then anyone of us and let her get to the bottom of it .
Zak is italian and he seems to be able to log on ,

i think she has stopped italians playing each other for awhile .

enjoy the games .

[spielberg]

I'm saddened by whatever has made it necessary for Patti to constrict inter italy play  and hope it will (eventually) be resolved but would like to point out that fibs is now and always will be a european invention  - sure it' s now in SF but before that it was in Sverige and before that it was in Deutschland . It's irrelevant where it "is" - that's the whole point of the net ( now that was an American invention I concede - US military action having a quite superb end effect for once - even if it was by accident )

And ciao to you too Nihi - so nice when you say hello.

To end on a quote (with apologies to my american friends  - remember he was teasing ):

"The United States can always be relied upon to do the right thing , once it has exhausted all the alternatives"  

Winston Churchill

[gulp]

   WHAT?! I AM AN HONEST ITALIAN PLAYING FROM YEARS HERE ON FIBS. I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE THIS ISSUE. SO I CAN'T PLAY ANYMORE AGAINST MY FAVORITE LOCAL FRIENDS???!!!!
THIS IS REALLY UNACEPTABLE, I FEEL HEAVILY DISCRIMINATED ALTOUGH I'M NOT PATRIOTIC NOR PROUD TO BE ITALIAN. YOU CAN'T 'PUNISH' A WHOLE COUNTRY JUST BECAUSE FEW IDIOTS TRICKS YOU AND COME FROM THERE! ITS FASCIST MADNESS. AND IF AN AMERICAN USE THE SAME TRICK WHAT? DO YOU BAN YOURSELF?? OR SHUT THE SITE? DON'T THINK THERE'S BETTER WAYS TO RAISE THE SECURITY LEVEL AVOIDING RISKS WITHOUT BEING THIS AWFUL?
PLEASE STOP THIS BRUTALITY AND PERSECUTE THE SINGLE GUILTY.

AN HUNGRY FIBS LOVER

[webrunner]

Please stop shouting, we get the point.