Fibs Shout Archive

[gammboy]

As some of you know, I have been working on a bot that collects data from FIBS.  One of the things it does is generate a daily shouts archive.  This poll is to gauge how the Fibs community feels about a public shouts archive being posted.

[Mookie]

GAMM!!!

I love the idea of a shout record--especially if players are reminded of it--as it will act somewhat panopticonish and keep people on their best behavior.  It would certainly make me think twice about some of the dumber, more knee-jerk shouts I sometimes make.   So, by all means, archive away.  Perhaps we can find someone on fibs who is a discourse analyst, and they can do a study on the archive overtime and publish a paper on something like "Scatology, Inanity, and Overt Innuendo: Repeated Topics in an Online Community."  

mookie, for whom--one again--you should VOUCH

[socksey]

I have been working on a bot that collects data from FIBS. One of the things it does is generate a daily shouts archive.

I used to love to be able to find something in shout archives when they were available before.  Was that a repbot feature?  You could enter any name and get everything that person ever shouted, or enter a date and get all the shouts for that date.  LOL  Anyway, I found it invaluable when trying to win an arguement!    Being able to search something would be great to do again.    

I've been keeping my own archives but they are far from complete since I only save when I am in Fibs.  

Yippee!  

socksey



"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself." - Peter O'Toole
   

[spielberg]

This is an excellent idea and may well , as Mookie suggests, lead to a (gradual no doubt ) improvement in shouting behaviour.

My discourse analysis is hardly of professional standard and I much prefer covert to overt innuendo (tho' I join in ths shouts of course). Perhaps I could analyse on an amateur basis?

[baldwin]

IMHO I think its quit neurotic to wanna keep track of it all. I hate it when i'm reminded by people: 'hey, you said.... beforë, and now you say....' juk. I love emotinal people who can regret their own behaviour. Think thats human.

Is this a gameserver or a mindblower? Is this server set up to play games or to point fingers at the 'Rubys'. (think he has to get his voice back anyway, but thats another topic worth.)

Luckely Dutch ISP's dont jump in to help gov. inst. on their search for virtual criminals. But here on fibs happy programmers collect all data you, might, ever need. Sick thought, sick thing.

Happy programming anyways.

Cheers Baldwin

[adamosad]

Great idea Gammboy    Go on!!!!    

[socksey]

Is this a gameserver or a mindblower?

Fibs has always been a mind blower for me.  That is the beauty of Fibs over other bg servers, isn't it?    Yes, I think it can be a deterrent to the more flagrant Fibber's utterances.  Let the good times roll!  

socksey



"The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of the human bladder." - Alfred Hitchcock
 

[diane]

I must say I am against this for a few reasons.  Firstly - I dont think it would do the slightest bit of good, no one who has any power to regulate the FIBS shout material is in the least bit interested in doing so - as we are all aware.  I further dont think the publication of shouts will make the offenders behave - anyone who thinks publishing his shouts will make NIHILIST change his personality is more delusional than I originally thought.
As well as that - the 'kids' who drop by to create a bit of fuss wont even be aware that is published - and less likely care.

The one and only approach we have to shield ourselves from the worst of all that goes on in shouts is to gag those we dont wish to hear - I take it this BOT wont gag anyone - so the content will not only be there in the moment - but be there forever!! And I am aware this board censors certain words - but come on - we can all fill in the blanks and the intent is immediately plain - and the hurt is caused.

So - if it is not going to change shouts for the better, and it will in the long run cause more hurt, what is the purpose?  Oh, wait - it might have one side effect - those who arent aware just how bad it is, day to day, might find out - and close the whole show down. Think about it.

[diane]

A further point to consider is this.  A certain wealthy backgammon player is currently sueing another person for publishing comments on his website made by somone else (I cannot say who or what   ).
This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?
I realise there probably arent many fibsters with the kind of money required to make a legal case out of anything here - but do you want to take the risk?

[gammboy]

Luckely Dutch ISP's dont jump in to help gov. inst. on their search for virtual criminals.

This is lucky?  So the Dutch ISPs provide safe haven for cyber criminals?  Maybe thats why so many of the phishing sites are run on Dutch IPs.   Now, stealing money for people's bank accounts is sick.  Far more sick than collecting Fibs data.

Anyway, I value and appreciate your opinions, pro or con.  I think I need to say that the shout log is just one minor facet of this project.  What it could become is a searchable database of FIBS history.

Here's an example:

mysql> select * from player_ratings where player_name = 'socksey';
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
| player_name | change_date         | rating  | experience |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 10:42:40 | 1554.33 |   38613.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 10:59:56 | 1557.83 |   38616.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 11:29:10 | 1560.63 |   38619.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:37:09 | 1557.83 |   38622.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:45:38 | 1559.66 |   38623.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:57:21 | 1557.60 |   38624.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-24 11:47:49 | 1575.45 |   38664.00 |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
7 rows in set (0.04 sec)

(Bear in mind, the data collection has not been running 24/7, so the above is not all inclusive)

Whenever a player's rating changes, a new record is added to player_ratings.  So socksey now has a tool by which she can graph her progress in the ratings.

Want to see matches you've played?

mysql> select player1, player2, start_time, match_points from matches where player1 = 'socksey' or player2 = 'socksey';
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
| player1  | player2       | start_time          | match_points |
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
| socksey  | conderocks    | 2005-05-17 22:59:37 |            1 |
| socksey  | jodvm         | 2005-05-17 23:17:21 |            3 |
| socksey  | sponi         | 2005-05-18 01:14:07 |            3 |
| RomanP   | socksey       | 2005-05-18 12:39:41 |            7 |
| Duck     | socksey       | 2005-05-19 15:19:24 |            1 |
| lobowolf | socksey       | 2005-05-20 10:42:41 |            3 |
| socksey  | spartiati     | 2005-05-20 10:59:57 |            3 |
| Noah     | socksey       | 2005-05-20 11:29:10 |            3 |
| socksey  | LinkMasterJoe | 2005-05-20 12:04:47 |            7 |
| socksey  | Mystyk        | 2005-05-20 12:45:38 |            1 |
| socksey  | blotsalot     | 2005-05-23 13:24:31 |            5 |
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
11 rows in set (0.02 sec)

There are unlimited possibilities for data mining here.  The question is, for whom is it useful, and is the view worth the climb?


GB

[gammboy]

So - if it is not going to change shouts for the better, and it will in the long run cause more hurt, what is the purpose? Oh, wait - it might have one side effect - those who arent aware just how bad it is, day to day, might find out - and close the whole show down. Think about it.

This is a very compelling argument against.  I have to say, the last thing I would want to do is to cause any problems for the operators of Fibs or Fibsboard.

GB

[Mookie]

A few matters:

Reardless of the record of shouts, I love the idea of the record of my matches.  I used to keep a hard copy of matches because I was interested in my history with particular players.  For instance, it would be nice to know what my matches with lewscannon have been like over the last ten years.  Now, I know your program won't work in retrospect, but it will be nice years from now to be able to do this.  Plug on, GAMM!, it's a great idea.

Now, about the record of shout functions, I have a few words to add, but before I do, let me be clear that while I still like the idea and would still vote yes, I have little investment one way or the other in how this turns out.

Two points, however:

1. diane says repeatedly that such a function would change no one's behavior.  while i understand that this may be true of many shouters, i think her claim is way overgeneralized.  I, for instance, already said in an earlier post that it would change MY behavior at times.  Not that I'm all that ill-behaved, but I have had moments of regret that wouldn't have occured if I held myself back.  Thinking of seeing stupid shouts shown to me a few weeks later WOULD change my behavior.  Surely, if it would shape mine, it would indeed shape some others.

2. since it is already possible for people to create personal or fibs-based logfiles of shouts, does that mean that all of these folks are ALREADY legally responsible for hosting fibs, fibsboard, etc.?

Bonus point.  3. i would still like to see someone do a content analysis of the shouts.  i would guess that "poop" and its variations would come out close to the top, right behind, strangely enough, the word "feet."

MOOKIE, who will give you 15% off on friday if you vouch for him today!

[diane]

Whenever a player's rating changes, a new record is added to player_ratings.  So socksey now has a tool by which she can graph her progress in the ratings.

Want to see matches you've played?

This certainly has some appeal for those who don't use javafibs - which already does all of this for you - including a nice plot of rating over time (1 week, month or year).

And to answer mookies point about legality - I dont know - I havent been closely involved in the case - but the shout logs as recorded are tamperable - ie - you can save a log and change the content - I think this would affect how much legal comeback a person may have.  A published document - on a site such as this is a different matter entirely - and whilst the moderators may remove material which is particularly offensive - doesn't this then defeat the objective you all have?

[gammboy]

This certainly has some appeal for those who don't use javafibs - which already does all of this for you - including a nice plot of rating over time (1 week, month or year).

But what if YOU want to know SOCKSEY's progress in the ratings?   What if you are curious about mookie's performance against lewscannon?  What if you want to know what times and dates someone you have a saved game with is usually on?  What if some future version of repbot wants to know if you are complaining about someone you have actually played a game with?  These are things that current client software can't do.

About the legal issues:  in the US, courts have consistently defended keepers of archives of public postings.  For instance, Yahoo archives and provides a search engine for all of usenet.  They cannot be held responsible for my postings on rec.games.backgammon any more than webrunner could be held responsible for a fibs shout archive.  Free speech in public forums such as fibs are protected by the US constitution when they are hosted in the US. I have no information about world courts on this issue.  If they are less protective of free speech, perhaps hosting the archive on a US server would be prudent.

I certainly understand your concerns, and I share them.  I don't want to do any harm to fibs, or fibsboard.  This project is, first, a learning experience for me, and second, a (possible) enhancement to fibs.  Whether it is seen as an enhancement or not is the point of this poll.  If it is, I will endeavor to make it accessable to the fibs community, if not, I'll gain the experience and let it die.  Either way, for me, it is a worthwhile project.

GB

[diane]

But what if YOU want to know SOCKSEY's progress in the ratings?   What if you are curious about mookie's performance against lewscannon?  What if you want to know what times and dates someone you have a saved game with is usually on?  What if some future version of repbot wants to know if you are complaining about someone you have actually played a game with?  These are things that current client software can't do.

This is definately worthwhile data - I am sure people will be able to make good use of it for a range of applications.

Your comments are interesting on the status in America - I would be curious about the rest of the world too - I know having consulted some legal minds (including American ones) re the bandying about of the nazi insult - this is most definately a legal matter - for anyone who has the money to throw at it.  

My main concern is that whilst it is bad enough that these type of insults are present in the transient forum of shouts - I dont want to see them kept for posterity - to continue to offend and hurt those they were aimed at.

And as for making people behave differently - I just dont see it - the worst offenders are not the likes of mookie who may have a silly moment - these can be apologised away later, it is the very much more unpleasant stuff - usually spouted from people passing by, and a few well known established characters.  The behaviour of these established characters is well documented already - and nothing has ever been done. I dont see that changing - so all we achieve is the permanent storage of things best never said.

I would like to see the shouts on fibs improved - and am currently toggled silent because I need a break from it, but until I see some form of commitment from anyone with the ability to do anything about it - I dont see the point in further distressing those whom the shouts are aimed at.

[socksey]

This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?

I think you are being too paranoid, diane.  The shout was made publicly already.  How could anyone have a case with that in mind?  Or if they did, they certainly couldn't get much out of me so I wouldn't feel "saddled" with anything.  

As I said before, the old archive access was great fun to play with.  

I recall being supremely embarrassed by some of the things I have shouted.  Like mookie, I would be censoring myself a bit more and this could have the same effect on many.  In any case, not something to be overly concerned about.  Look at it this way.......more optimistically.........this could have a positive effect on Fibs shouts.  Think of the glass as being half full........not half empty.  

socksey



"If I had been in the president's place, I would not have gotten the chance to resign. I would have been lying in a pool of my own blood, looking up, and listening to my wife ask, 'How do you reload this son of a b***h?'" - Texas congressman Dick Armey, answering the question, "If you had been in President Clinton's place, would you have resigned?"

[adamosad]

Can you see the luck in each game too with all other statistics? In socksey example above you can see her rating and you can know if she won or lost.

Can you think something to make this bot to show the luck that gnu shows too?

[gammboy]

Can you think something to make this bot to show the luck that gnu shows too?

No.  Unfortunately this (or any) bot can not see the rolls and moves in the games.  I suppose it could watch and do some analysis, but it could only watch one game at the time, so the vast majority of games would be missed.  It does know about games in progress, so I suppose it could do a series of "look" commands to simultaneously monitor and analyze all games, but I'm afraid something like that would overwhelm the FIBS server.

So, unfortunately, this bot is limited to collecting the same data that you would see if you logged in via telnet.

GB

[adamosad]

What about reputation? can you put it in? I want to find a way to see the rep of each player across the time. It is easy to do that for rating and exper i think. Can i do that for rep too?

[adrian]

A further point to consider is this.  A certain wealthy backgammon player is currently sueing another person for publishing comments on his website made by somone else (I cannot say who or what  ).
This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?
I realise there probably arent many fibsters with the kind of money required to make a legal case out of anything here - but do you want to take the risk?

:angry: The above will happen to us here in Romania when we will join EU. I hate not to being able to piss o the neighbour fence because of the risk of a mistrial.

Gammboy, DO IT. At least it will be fun for me. The others will do and use the results of your work as they like.

(Hello diane, missed ya!     )